Each day, we’ll have the latest news from the courtroom in the Sines v. Kessler Unite the Right trial. For coverage from previous days, check the list of links at the bottom of this page.
In 2017, Richard Spencer was the poster boy for the alt-right. More recently, he’s the defendant in Sines v. Kessler who was on the witness stand for over four hours Thursday. Much of his testimony involved quibbling over what he’d said in a 2020 deposition, texts, and other public statements.
This was the ninth day in the lawsuit against the neo-Nazis who led the violent 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, and patience in U.S. District Court started to wear thin.
Plaintiffs’ attorney Michael Bloch, an attorney with lead lawyer Roberta Kaplan’s firm, questioned Spencer, who repeatedly said, “I don’t want to quibble” when his answers in court differed from earlier statements.
“Do you believe the races should be separated?” asked Bloch.
“No,” said Spencer.
Bloch pulled up Spencer’s July 2020 deposition, in which he agreed that the races should be separated.
“That’s a semantic issue,” insisted Spencer from the witness stand.
“Do you believe Blacks and Hispanics are an underclass?” asked Bloch. Spencer replied no.
Bloch played a 2017 radio show in which Spencer said, “Yeah, a lot of these people are going to be an underclass we don’t want in our society,” specifically mentioning Black and Hispanic people, going on to say they have lower IQs and are predisposed to commit crimes.
Spencer continued to quibble on the stand. “Did I say there are average IQ issues between races? I’ve written books on this.”
He conceded he was an advocate for a white ethno-state, but disagreed that such a move would result in a race war. “I was trying to effect social change,” he said.
Bloch introduced a video in which Spencer proclaimed his ownership of a white America, and said, “For us it is conquer or die.”
In an April 2017 tweet, he wrote, “Our msg to antifa: WE WILL CRUSH YOU.”
On the stand, Spencer described his tone as “tough talk.”
Spencer acknowledged there were some racial slurs he would use privately, but not publicly, because “I don’t believe in demeaning anyone in public.”
In a secretly recorded tirade from just after the Unite the Right rally, Spencer can be heard saying “little fucking octaroons, my ancestors enslaved those little pieces of shit. I rule the fucking world. Those pieces of fucking shit get ruled by me.”
No doubt knowing this would come up, Spencer, who is representing himself in the trial, had mentioned the racist spiel in his opening statement to the jury, and said Thursday that was not his sincerely held belief.
“Moments like that capture my most childish, embarrassing sentiments, the animal brain, you could say,” he said. “I’m ashamed of it… That is me at my absolute worst.”
Spencer has maintained that he was merely an invited speaker to the Unite the Right, not an organizer.
In court, he admitted that he designated his close associates Greg Conte and co-defendant Elliott Kline, aka Eli Mosley, both with Identity Evropa, to deal with rally organizer Jason Kessler.
“I just didn’t want to talk to Kessler,” said Spencer. “I don’t really like him, to be honest.”
While Spencer has said he was not on the Discord Charlottesville 2.0 server, where plans for Unite the Right fomented, “you didn’t say that Conte was,” said Bloch.
“The only person I would really deal with was Greg,” said Spencer.
Kline has also testified that he was on the Discord leadership chat for Charlottesville 2.0.
Bloch also asked about Spencer’s relationshop with neo-Nazi Matthew Heimbach, who was on the stand Wednesday. Heimbach testified he’d had maybe one conversation with Spencer and that they talked about their families. On Thursday, Bloch asked Spencer if the two had talked about white nationalism. “That topic is so broad,” said Spencer. “I’m sure it came up.” He called the difference between talking about family and white nationalism “semantics.”
During Spencer’s deposition, which Bloch played, he said he and Heimbach had talked about “the big picture stuff” regarding white nationalism.
In court, Spencer complained, “I just said yes. I don’t know why you keep asking.”
By then Moon seemed to be annoyed with the attorney’s method, and had interrupted several times. “What is the point?” queried the judge. “Are you testing his memory? Are you trying to impeach him? I think you would agree any lawyer worth his salt would know the answer before asking.” He added that “quibbling” over the terms was taking a lot of time.
Quibbling continued to be the theme when the court reconvened after lunch. Spencer called Chris “Crying Nazi” Cantwell an acquaintance, and said he’d exchanged seven texts with Cantwell and one phone call.
Bloch had produced records showing 88 texts between Cantwell and Spencer in a six-week period. Spencer said that he was counting “instances” of communication, not actual texts.
“This is becoming time-consuming,” said Moon. “We’ve gone through this exercise. That’s enough.”
Bloch said he wanted to correct the impression Spencer left with the jury, and he produced phone records of three phone calls as well.
“A five-second phone call,” scoffed Spencer, looking at the records. “I probably didn’t count that. I might not have counted calls that were not answered. I’m not trying to lie.”
More quibbling came when Spencer said he didn’t lead the August 11 tiki-torch march on UVA Grounds. A video introduced as evidence has Spencer saying, “I was in the lead.” And a text from Kessler told him to come to the front.
“I was certainly at the front,” testified Spencer. “We could quibble about who led.”
Spencer maintained he saw no violence that night, only a little pushing and shoving. He said the hundreds of torch-bearing neo-Nazis that surrounded the 30 or so students at the Thomas Jefferson statue in front of the Rotunda were merely “occupying space” to get their message of “dominance” out. “It was not about violence,” he said.
Plaintiffs Nataie Romero and Devin Willis, then UVA students, have both testified they were pepper sprayed and called racial slurs that night at the statue. Cantwell pleaded guilty to two counts of assault and was banned from Virginia for five years.
A photo of police dragging Spencer out of the former Lee Park on August 12 was entered. “We passively resisted,” he said.
“You screamed at police officers they’d have to drag you out of there,” said Bloch, noting that police maced Spencer.
After the rally was declared an unlawful assembly, Spencer, Conte, and co-defendant Nathan Damigo came up with talking points, according to texts: “The police broke up a peaceful assembly. Forced us into a dangerous space with antifa.”
“You claim you wanted to give a speech at Unite the Right,” said Bloch. “You wanted to hear other speakers. You wanted it to be peaceful. None of that happened.”
“It was tragic,” said Spencer.
“That sounds like the right thing to say in court,” said Bloch.
“It’s true,” said Spencer.
Bloch entered another exhibit with Spencer on a show called “Goytalk” that happened long enough after August 12 that he’d grown a moustache. Spencer said of Unite the Right, “That sense of togetherness and boldness and power. It was amazing.”
“You thought Charlottesville was amazing because you accomplished exactly what you set out to do,” said Bloch.
“Absolutely not,” said Spencer.
Testimony continues Friday with Cantwell’s cross examination of fellow defendant Spencer.
Previous Sines v. Kessler coverage
Pre-trial: Their day in court: Major lawsuit against Unite the Right neo-Nazis heads to trial
Day one, 10/25: Trial kicks off with jury selection
Day two, 10/26: Desperately seeking jury
Day three, 10/27: Jury selection wraps up
Day four, 10/28: Plaintiffs and defendants make their opening arguments
Day five, 10/29: “I hear it in my nightmares,” says plaintiff Romero
Day six, 11/1: “I stopped being an outgoing, sociable person,” says plaintiff Willis
Day seven, 11/2: “Strike that”
Day eight, 11/3: Defendants fawn over Hitler